| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Are we undoing what trade unions used 150 years to achieve? Thread poster: Carole Muller
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Carole Muller
Denmark
Local time: 08:31
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | Accreditation is part of the issue, agencies are too, because they don't mind hiring without | Dec 14, 2001 |
...they don\'t mind hiring without because they can use both those translators who are not accreditable under any circumstances and those who can\'t access accreditation but would pass the test.
It\'s been my point all the time: agencies are really good at packaging. Packaging includes selecting components that a client wouldn\'t want and arrange them nicely in a basket. Here the components are 0.02 cts translator with a father/mother/3 months holiday stay in country Z, or d... See more ...they don\'t mind hiring without because they can use both those translators who are not accreditable under any circumstances and those who can\'t access accreditation but would pass the test.
It\'s been my point all the time: agencies are really good at packaging. Packaging includes selecting components that a client wouldn\'t want and arrange them nicely in a basket. Here the components are 0.02 cts translator with a father/mother/3 months holiday stay in country Z, or domain experts -as mysef- who have written own research and wrote own international reports in a domain, therefore are those actually creating the new terminology which is then spread by translators (professionally trained)into the language thereby acting as an avant-garde for the rest. Such domain experts as myself by having a deep insight into a given field of expertise are valuable and useful to agencies when the mainstream generalist translator cannot cope with the complexity of the matter, something that results in conveying in a correct wording the wrong meaning. Meaning distortion can be slightly off all the way through or can have dramatic pokes here and there into total disaster.
But agencies are just great at putting to work all those people.
Therefore accreditation will solve part of the problem (convert the accreditable into accredited) but they are still a minority. What do we do with the majority of newcomers, Werner has a specific term which I forgot, but those who have a father/mother/partner/spent 3 months in holiday/a wife/a husband, all good reasons but not qualifications per se. We all have or had a mother/father/wife/husband/partner/spent 3 months in an industry, agriculture, factories, restaurants, law offices, research centres, but it does not make us a PhD or even a B.Sc. or M.Sc. into the subject, does it?
Would you like your plane to be flown by the son of the pilot?
BUT PROZ CAN FIX ANOTHER PROBLEM: One of the dysfunctions of the accreditation process, is that professional associations of translators in each country are responsible for accreditation, but not all are offering the option to apply for accreditation. In some countries either you are automatically accredited or you can never be.
Take for instance Denmark, where I work, the Association of Danish Translators is open (for membership) only to those who have taken a degree in translation at anyone of the Danish Business Schools. (I think there are only 2 offering translation).
If you studied somewhere else, you can\'t become a member, not even a little passive one with no vote etc...
Therefore you can\'t apply the Ministry of Industry (they are the authority responsible for granting accrediation in Denmark) and therefore you can\'t become accredited. There is no exam which you can access, You can not even apply for the exam held by the two schools offering translation courses (at B.A. and M.A. level). You have to ENROLL for classes and you have to be recorded as having been present at all classes during the year.
BUT: you can qualify for the EU Commission\'s postgraduate course in translation, because it is the EU financing it and setting the rules. Access is opened to all with at least an M.A. or M.Sc. So you can submit your qualifications to a jury at post-graduate level and if you pass follow a course.
But since the course is financed by the EU, the Danes found the loophole and did not recognise it as higher education, hence when you have passed the entry test at post-gradute level and followed the course, you\'re back to square 1, because it is not an academic degree in Denmark and you still cannot get the accreditation, which any graduate with an MA from the Danish business schools gets automatically- also those who failed the post-graduate entry level test.
LOGICAL? That\'s how they thought they would protect their members, because small countries fear for their small markets.
But clients\' don\'t look for accreditation, unless they need the translation to be officially stamped as done by an assermented translator(and this assermentation and seal is awarded to the accredited Danish translators, who must be graduates from the Business school etc, etc...)
Kind of problematic...but it does not put the rest of us, not accredited, good and bad, out of work.
HERE\'S HOW proz can aggravate it or improve it:
(we\'re back in Denmark)
EITHER: you open an agency (since you are able to \"do languages, you can always ensure client contact, quality assurance etc..) and you send the work abroad to 0.02 cts using such a platform as proz: clients are happy, it seems, I hear a new agency just shook the Danish market, opening shop on a posh address and offering rates that are 50 % of other agencies, and they are stealing clients from everybody and laughing all the way to the bank.
OR: You work for an agency at 20% of what the accredited translator takes or the agency charges clients(since you have to compete with the 0.02 cts/word rates), and even after years in the translation business you still can\'t get accredited.
CONCLUSION: either we (with English in some language pair) all take the ATA exam and become accredited in the US for working in Europe, they say it\'s all a global village anyway
OR: we all unite through proz to lobby through the international federation of translator associations to prepare an international test, using the same model of accreditation as the ATA and the same test contents everywhere, open to all who wish to submit their qualifications to a jury, just as the ATA. This test could then be offered through all national translator associations.
BECAUSE: in small countries, you have small agendas of your own to tend to and there was some time ago an xx having fixed the exam at yy and sending quite unprofessional protégés to ZZZ who is actually financing the courses offered at xx, following which ZZZ had the protégés pass a test, which they failed and ZZZ understood what had been going on for a while.
TESTING HAS TO BE UNIVERSALLY ACCESSIBLE to make accreditation be equivalent everywhere and to ensure that it can be conducted anonymously (the examiner does not know who is the applicant). Then, the only abuse will be of those who pass on to their protégés the papers of the exam to preview and prepare, as happened at xx. However, it will only be a minor problem as compared to the current state of things. (don\'t ask why xx protected yy, they had a personal interest vested in promoting yy, because they owed a favour to yy).
CONCLUSIONS: access to accreditation whenever feasible should be enforced through some international interest organisation and enforeced on those member organisations who want to use accrediation not as a quality assurance but as a restriction to the accessing the profession.
Whatever point they had in the past is now totally passé, with the Internet the future is here and so is the kind of problems we\'re dealing with here.
But knowing how interest organisations work in powerfull syndicated Denmark, I have my doubts this can be achieved. I don\'t think an organisation as proz should conduct accreditation. But another solution would ne to ask the international association of translators to (1)convey information on who is a member and (2) provide accreditation tests. Then is someone is failing in country X and passing in country Y, somewhere in X, somebody has some explanation to give , or in country Y. Then (3)instead of accrediting and checking translators, proz should check the identity of those calling for bids, such as checking the client company/agency exists, IS VAT REGISTERED, IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE WATCH LIST FOR FAILING TO PAY which official bodies in countries keep everywhere, and is not listed on a translator forum listing due-payment-challenged agencies. And (4) proz could start listing client companies, listing whether payment was paid in due time or not,what the rate was per word for the job done etc.... I think making such listings available to paying members of proz would be much more helpful then ppushing prices down.
But then proz needs to know who are its core clients: the translators paying a fee for platimum or premium membership, the free-riders who are potential marketing material to TRADOS and other CAT or software producers, the many companies -external or not to the translation market and the translation tools markets- who may/may not buy our addresses (didn\'t see any privacy policy on the site yet) or....the agencies!!!
I made some quick research and found proz marketed in Denmark only on translation agencies in an affiliate program between the agency and proz offering the free questions answered online by...proz members, you guessed it. Shouldnt\' proz be promoting poz\'s interest and the paying members interests by profiling us where direct clients might go and look for us? I don\'t think listing us on the web site of an agency with direct access to Kudoz is the only way to attract direct clients,a fter all it\'s only stealing them from the agency, so why is the agency finding it to be intereresting? Maybe because it is one of the only agencies in Denmark promoting Polish-Danish translators, which surely do not abound on proz. And then why isn\'t proz on OTHER web portals in Denmark.
(read: hey, ask me if you want help for that...)
[addsig] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 02:31
German to English
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Quote:
On 2001-12-14 21:34, cm_quality wrote:
But clients\' don\'t look for accreditation, unless they need the translation to be officially stamped as done by an assermented translator(and this assermentation and seal is awarded to the accredited Danish translators, who must be graduates from the Business school etc, etc...)
This is a wrong assumption: ATA accredited tra... See more Quote:
On 2001-12-14 21:34, cm_quality wrote:
But clients\' don\'t look for accreditation, unless they need the translation to be officially stamped as done by an assermented translator(and this assermentation and seal is awarded to the accredited Danish translators, who must be graduates from the Business school etc, etc...)
This is a wrong assumption: ATA accredited translators, for example, do not have this \"notarial\" power. \"Accredited/certified\", in most cases, means that the translator has been \"QA tested\". And clients DO ask for these translators: in Canada, for example, 95% (at least) of all clients demand a Certified Translator (=our version of \"accredited\", but we also have \"notarial powers\"), whether it be for a legal document or some business correspondence: CTIC certification has, in many ways, become our version of ISO9000 for translators. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Translator without Accreditation | Dec 15, 2001 |
I agree with Maya.
Not much emphasis should be placed on accreditation. It would just open the door for \'agencies\' who extract yearly fees from translators.
Personally, I have grown up in West-Germany, earned my degree in Germany (PhD chemistry/biochemistry) and have since worked as a scientist and as a translator in the USA (23 years). Science studies have required proficiency in the English language for decades now. Accreditation requirements would force me, and many tran... See more I agree with Maya.
Not much emphasis should be placed on accreditation. It would just open the door for \'agencies\' who extract yearly fees from translators.
Personally, I have grown up in West-Germany, earned my degree in Germany (PhD chemistry/biochemistry) and have since worked as a scientist and as a translator in the USA (23 years). Science studies have required proficiency in the English language for decades now. Accreditation requirements would force me, and many translators like me,
A. to pay for redundant courses,
B. to waste time on meaningless tests,
C. to be captives of people who make money in this scheme.
From my experience (not very much, I have to admit) on ProZ: Accreditation means nothing!
A note to the problem of translator over-crowding:
MCSEs were forced to renew their certificates, only 8-10% renewed their certificates this year! The glut of MCSEs will disappear. Market forces will change the level of interest in any given field.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-12-15 23:46 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dyran Altenburg (X) 
United States
Local time: 02:31
English to Spanish
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| Speaking of contradictions... | Dec 16, 2001 |
Telesforo,
Not getting into whether I agree with you or not, but it strikes me as contradictory that you would be so vocal about how ProZ lowers rates by offering open bids, and then write things like this in your profile page (which, and I hope you don\'t take this the wrong way, could benefit from some proofreading):
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-I offer good rates, because I love translating rather than rates.
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| Carole, I know where you are coming from... | Dec 17, 2001 |
You join Proz - home to over 20,000 language \"professionals\" - and what do you find? That the professionals are probably about 500 and that the rest have joined just for the job postings. There you are. As a professional person, you cannot believe what you are seeing. I behaved like that when I joined, but then I understood. It\'s very frustrating, but it\'s the reality. Nobody likes seeing \"fellow translators\" acting in a very unprofessional manner, translating both ways when they are clear... See more You join Proz - home to over 20,000 language \"professionals\" - and what do you find? That the professionals are probably about 500 and that the rest have joined just for the job postings. There you are. As a professional person, you cannot believe what you are seeing. I behaved like that when I joined, but then I understood. It\'s very frustrating, but it\'s the reality. Nobody likes seeing \"fellow translators\" acting in a very unprofessional manner, translating both ways when they are clearly not bilingual (take the Italian community, for example). Let\'s face it: in some country our profession is still regarded as something anybody could do... you just need to know a foreign language (a bit). Well, Proz is what it is... it\'s a nice place for debating matters with other translators and having fun with the Kudoz. Nothing more, nothing less. I past the phase of being upset... unfortunately, there isn\'t very much you can do about that. I believe the solution is to have well trained, acredited translators who can offer a quality job at a proper price. We are a professional entity, without the respect it deserves.
Giovanni
P.S. Yes, scrap the public bidding. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Public bidding is scrapped | Dec 21, 2001 |
Outsourcers can no longer select \'open bidding\' as a posting option.
Henry
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 02:31
German to English
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Quote:
On 2001-12-21 01:20, Henry wrote:
Outsourcers can no longer select \'open bidding\' as a posting option.
Henry
This is really good news! Thank you, Henry. *Doomo arigatoo gozaimasu*
The first step to greater excellence has been taken!
| | | | LJC (X)
France
Local time: 08:31
French to English
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| Thank you Henry | Dec 21, 2001 |
That\'s great news. (Sorry for the typo in my previous message.)
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Giovanna Lester
United States
Local time: 02:31
Portuguese to English
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| Proz role in furthering the reach of translators good and bad | Dec 24, 2001 |
I fell in love with [what I undestood to be] the concept behind Proz: an Agora for professional translators from around the world.
I was very disappointed the first time I read a Kudoz question with extremely simple language any dictionary could elucidate. Than I had another blow when people started accepting wrong answers based on how well the \"answerer\" presented him/herself, rather than on research of a proposed suggestion. And those proposing the innapropriate answer... See more I fell in love with [what I undestood to be] the concept behind Proz: an Agora for professional translators from around the world.
I was very disappointed the first time I read a Kudoz question with extremely simple language any dictionary could elucidate. Than I had another blow when people started accepting wrong answers based on how well the \"answerer\" presented him/herself, rather than on research of a proposed suggestion. And those proposing the innapropriate answer got the Kudoz that would position them better than those who proposed the correct answer. . .
So, in reality, it is the person who selects the answer who decides who is a better translator, rather a professional\'s own merits. That is a flawed very discouraging system.
I have to applaud the decision to end the public bidding. I avoided visiting Proz for some time because I felt so disrespected by that system. A friend who owns a translation agency got turned down for a project she bid (ouside of Proz) because the client found a lower price, and when I she told me she had asked USD$0.08/word, the first thought that crossed my mind was that the client had opened bidding at Proz - the only place where people offer their services at USD$0.02/word!!! That is less than I pay to have my work proofed.
I became a Platinum member because a trusted friend said it was a GREAT thing. I am still waiting for results, but learning that professionals get selected based on their Kudoz points is discouraging when you consider that my fate is in the hands of people who don\'t know enough to chose the correct answer.
So, back to what Carole said that started this whole string. . . Are we undoing what the Unions managed to accomplish in 150 years of hard work and sacrifices? Seems that way. And this realization hurst, in spite of all of Henry\'s well meaning words and efforts.
I hope the closed/paid bidding will restore some decency to the process.
Giovanna ▲ Collapse
| | | | International Translation Agency Ltd // (X)
Local time: 08:31
English to French
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| Let's not complain and Act instead! | Jan 9, 2002 |
I\'m going to be short and to the point:
1. Credentials:
Let\'s ask Proz.com to make credentialing compulsory for all translators and interpreters and formal company registration for translation companies. If Proz take such a decision, probably most of the 11 000 + so called translators will disappear! But the, again, this may not serve the business interests of Proz!
2. Rates
Let\'s agree on a minimu rate, say US$ 0.10 per source wor... See more I\'m going to be short and to the point:
1. Credentials:
Let\'s ask Proz.com to make credentialing compulsory for all translators and interpreters and formal company registration for translation companies. If Proz take such a decision, probably most of the 11 000 + so called translators will disappear! But the, again, this may not serve the business interests of Proz!
2. Rates
Let\'s agree on a minimu rate, say US$ 0.10 per source word(FOR EXAMPLE) and ask Proz.com (again!) to ensure nobody offers nor accepts less than the established rate!
We\'ve been on Proz.com for quite a while (since its inception, if I remember well) and believe me, we NEVER got one single job through this Site! Like many of you already stated, we have our own clients in the Real World and we worked hard to win their trust. I, for one, can not complain.
Good luck to all and everyone
R. Titouah ▲ Collapse
| | | | | On accreditations and University Degrees | Jan 11, 2002 |
Being professional myself, I must admit that ,unfortunately accreditations and university degrees sometimes mean little.
I have come across professionals who had their diplomas nicely framed but whose knowledge left much to be desired.
I have come across translators who read only the documents to be translated, and whose literary training, for example, is null. Personally, I think the best translators are usually those who are [or have been] good readers.
... See more Being professional myself, I must admit that ,unfortunately accreditations and university degrees sometimes mean little.
I have come across professionals who had their diplomas nicely framed but whose knowledge left much to be desired.
I have come across translators who read only the documents to be translated, and whose literary training, for example, is null. Personally, I think the best translators are usually those who are [or have been] good readers.
It is all right with having a University Diploma or an accreditation. But, we have to admit that , unfortunately, intelligence does not come in the same package.
Can we deny that we have come across brilliant people who had no University Diplomas whatsoever? I think this idea that the most intelligent follow a career or that the least intelligent are those who do not study or go to University, is all wrong. As a teacher I had brilliant students who hated studying, but whose remarks everybody was interested in listening to.Why? Simple: They were brilliant.
Last but not least, the person who most taught me about languages and translation back in my early years as a student was a NON professional translator, an excellent teacher of english with no University degrees in teaching either.
Please, don\'t take me wrong, I am in no way implying that University Degrees are unimportant, but I would like us to be honest and realistic and admit that accreditations and titles do not always guarantee that there is a professional behind them.
I think we should judge others not so much for their degrees or accreditations but for their actual abilities.
Days ago a read something interesting about this subject and I read a phrase that went: \" Remember that the Noah Arch was built by amateurs and the Titanic was buit by professionals\".
Regards,
Bertha ▲ Collapse
| | | | isthmian
Local time: 01:31
English to Spanish
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| Anybody from the Third World posting here? | Feb 18, 2002 |
Read Monica Alfonoso\'s posting in http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&eid_c=11053&topic=668&forum=8&18 from Argentina, where professionals spend half of their day in line outside of banks juggling dollars and pesos to eat:
Quote:mónica alfonso ... See more
Read Monica Alfonoso\'s posting in http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&eid_c=11053&topic=668&forum=8&18 from Argentina, where professionals spend half of their day in line outside of banks juggling dollars and pesos to eat:
Quote:mónica alfonso
Nov 28
I\'m afraid many of you are so lucky that have never even tried to think how it feels living in an underdeveloped country.
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And mind you, studying here is as difficult as getting good money. I have even attended courses abroad.
However my qualifications be high, no matter my long experience, despite my excellent references that are verifiable (not only in my own country but also in the USA), it has become very difficult for me (and for many other Argentine translators some of whom are ProZ members) to get a job for even .05/word.
This our reality, independently of how much we know, how hard we work and how good we are.
I hope you can now understand our position in this forgotten hemisphere.
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Parrot
Spain
Local time: 08:31
Spanish to English
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| Agrees and Disagrees | Apr 6, 2002 |
So public bidding has been scrapped - hurray. Now on to the next thing, which is what I think Carole\'s posting was all about. Can we, in all ethic, turn a blind eye to the fact that unscrupulous people can use this site to get cheap labor, bearing in mind that it reaches parts of the world where PROFESSIONALS DOING THE SAME THING WILL NOT NECESSARILY GET THE SAME, OR EVEN A REASONABLY FAIR, TREATMENT?
Maya: I will have to agree with you, based on my experience of teaching i... See more So public bidding has been scrapped - hurray. Now on to the next thing, which is what I think Carole\'s posting was all about. Can we, in all ethic, turn a blind eye to the fact that unscrupulous people can use this site to get cheap labor, bearing in mind that it reaches parts of the world where PROFESSIONALS DOING THE SAME THING WILL NOT NECESSARILY GET THE SAME, OR EVEN A REASONABLY FAIR, TREATMENT?
Maya: I will have to agree with you, based on my experience of teaching in a State University that cavilled for several years before REJECTING THE IDEA OF OFFERING T&I AS AN UNDERGRADUATE COURSE (what to do with taxpayers\' money is always important at state institutions). The argument that finally prevailed was, you cannot guarantee success to a T&I graduate who, at 18-23, can hardly be expected to have acquired the necessary background on which to employ his languages (that institution ended up offering a Master\'s for professionals from other fields, which turned out more successful). Years later, as a reader at another (private) institution offering T&I as an undergraduate course, I encountered no end of professors complaining that their classes were filled with self-important amateur polyglots rearing to take on the JICS, who couldn\'t even differentiate fish from cephalopods and crustaceans. On the other hand, there were the retired justices and engineers who had decided to translate (they weren\'t going back to school!) and turned out to be some of the best.
Accreditations: Not universally available, as Henry said. The \"professional association\" that figures on my page, for instance, was set up in 1983 by the AIIC as an accrediting institution, and abandoned as such after 1986 when the persons in charge had relocated, although it still maintains a directory of the old members. And what is recognized on ProZ as the main accrediting institution here in Spain has not opened its doors for sometime now (it operates from the President\'s house in Pozuelo, where he does his private translations). So, curious enough, we all have to go to the Institute of Linguists in London, especially considering that publishers here are not obliged to print translation credits (to be accredited, you have to publish). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Guy Bray
United States
Local time: 23:31
French to English
| Qu'ils mangent de la brioche, alors! | May 2, 2002 |
Will you listen to yourselves? And will you take a moment to consider the position of the have-nots? This forum has become dominated by translators who are highly paid and who presume to lecture the whole community on how to behave concerning fees. As a member of the underclass, I have to tell you that you sound like a set of Marie Antoinettes, advising the rest of us to eat cake. Or spokespersons for a closed shop seeking to suppress cheaper competition.
The notice on t... See more Will you listen to yourselves? And will you take a moment to consider the position of the have-nots? This forum has become dominated by translators who are highly paid and who presume to lecture the whole community on how to behave concerning fees. As a member of the underclass, I have to tell you that you sound like a set of Marie Antoinettes, advising the rest of us to eat cake. Or spokespersons for a closed shop seeking to suppress cheaper competition.
The notice on this forum discourages detailed discussions of rates, but in fact it seems to be the principal topic, so I want to point out that we would all love to work for ten cents or more per word, but no one is offering to pay us so much. We can’t wait for the millennium; meanwhile, we’d rather work for even a few pennies, than insist on ten cents and not work at all.
Here’s my situation, just as an example: I admittedly have no translating accreditations, but I do have decades of international industry and United Nations experience doing professional technical work, including translation, in francophone environments. I have lots of letters after my name, I’m a Platinum member of ProZ.com, I have accumulated 600 KudoZ points, and the few clients I’ve managed to find say I’m a good translator. But I had to drop my price to US$0.06 per word to get any work at all, and to this day I’ve never been paid more than 0.084 Euros. When I do work, it’s usually for six cents per word, and happy to get it.
I’m not bemoaning my fate: this is a new, post-retirement career for me, and the entry level of most occupations begins with a period of difficult, poorly-paid labor. Moreover, I have a pension, so I don’t have to live off my earnings. But I do resent being lectured by people who are so much better off they seem to have forgotten what it is like to be a beginner. One of your number—who admits to regularly receiving as much as 15 to 20 cents per word--even had the audacity to say “Shame on You” because I will accept six.
And consider the position of translators in developing countries, and those with high inflation. As a colleague in Latin America observed: “The point would be to make those people realize that they should not be so arrogant. The list of countries where US$0.05 /word is more than enough would be endless (Russia, India, Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, China,Cuba, Dominican Rep....) and I think the opposite list would be a lot shorter”.
You may say: if you don’t like to hear our views, stay away from this forum. In fact I did, but I was drawn in by the hope that I might find some advice I could use. What I found was sermons. Please, spare us your long-winded pieties about professional dignity, and let’s hear some practical suggestions about getting well-paid jobs like yours. If you have any. And don’t say: you just have to hang in there. We’re already doing that.
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| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 02:31
German to English
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Guy, I am puzzled: you live in the US, and you work in a very profitable language combination. So, what went wrong?
You could easily get 10-12 cents from US clients for French-English, so why settle for 6 cents or less?
IMHO, this has nothing to do with credentials, because you have an impressive CV, but somewhere along the way you must have made a colossal mistake in marketing yourself. 6 cents for a F... See more Guy, I am puzzled: you live in the US, and you work in a very profitable language combination. So, what went wrong?
You could easily get 10-12 cents from US clients for French-English, so why settle for 6 cents or less?
IMHO, this has nothing to do with credentials, because you have an impressive CV, but somewhere along the way you must have made a colossal mistake in marketing yourself. 6 cents for a French-English translator in the US is an insult. I suppose you just never found the right clients (or they never found you) 
If a translator in a developing country does not charge more than that, I\'ll understand. But when you\'re based in the US (with an excellent language combination), 6 cents is a clear sign of bad marketing.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-02 17:28 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Are we undoing what trade unions used 150 years to achieve? | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
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