| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Is $ 0.05 per source word a "fair amount" for translators? Thread poster: Chiara Deaglio
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with Samuel and Miroslav
What Wikipedia or whoever states on rates is only theory, reality is different.
In Italy the standard rate offered by agencies is € 0,05-0,06 (I also saw a "suggested" rate is 0,03 if you want to get work) and there are many peolple who deliver good work for those rates. If you are lucky (read experienced and deliver good work, are on the market since many years...) you can decide not to work for those rates, but it's something that not everybody can do (if... See more with Samuel and Miroslav
What Wikipedia or whoever states on rates is only theory, reality is different.
In Italy the standard rate offered by agencies is € 0,05-0,06 (I also saw a "suggested" rate is 0,03 if you want to get work) and there are many peolple who deliver good work for those rates. If you are lucky (read experienced and deliver good work, are on the market since many years...) you can decide not to work for those rates, but it's something that not everybody can do (if you need to work).
And what about the many translators who for for Indian agencies?
@Isaac
I think it was meant that in countries with lower costs for living, translators can also work for lower rates and this is a fact too. It's not that translators are less professional, it's just a question on how much money you need to live.
[Edited at 2014-09-24 08:44 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson 
Spain
Local time: 23:26
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| I can only give my case | Sep 24, 2014 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
On the other hand, full membership combined with KudoZ points gives you visibility in Proz.com's directory. That's when you get contacted by more serious and direct clients. It happens in my language pair. It only happens in your language pair, Bernhard.:-)
I can assure you it happens in French to English as well. Seeing as it's the case in FR>EN, DE>EN, EN>DE I'm sure it's likely to happen in all the major pairs.
The ProZ.com reported rates do not reflect what translators actually get paid for translation, but rather what they would like to be paid.
My own rate is published in my profile in black and white. Whenever I quote lower per word there's a clear business case for doing so, e.g. my per-hour rate will not be compromised. It's only applied to one regular job in the past year. And the only time I ever quote a lower per-hour rate is for reviewing fellow freelancers' own marketing material - a discount that I refer to in my profile. On the other hand, I do inform my clients of my surcharges where applicable.
What I don't understand, Samuel, is when you say this:
The fact that you (referring to Bernhard) personally receive both high and low offers does not mean that everyone does. Some people only get both low and very low offers.
I get offers, too. Most, though not all, are low or very low offers, and merit nothing more than the bin or a short reply giving my rates. But many of the private contacts I receive through my ProZ.com profile don't mention a rate at all: they ask me for my rate. And a high percentage of those accept my rate happily. The bottom line is that I reserve the right to set the rate for my work. It's every freelancer's right and I suspect it's only been since the advent of the Internet that some freelancers have allowed this right to be denied them.
I know it can be very difficult when you have to put bread on the table but I do get the impression that many freelance translators do themselves no favours whatsoever. They go the simplest route: accept what the first agency offers, no matter what the offer is. Someone mentioned an enormous difference between the rate offered by local agencies and ones abroad. So, who's restricting you to local agencies? Why not leave their jobs to the unqualified, inexperienced and hobby translators, and market your services world-wide?
Maria Teresa Pozzi wrote:
And what about the many translators who for for Indian agencies?
I can't see any reason for anyone working for them who doesn't also benefit from the lower cost of living in India and other developing countries. Actually, we're currently seeing unrest among salaried workers in China and some major increases in wages there. I wonder when freelancers in places like China and India will see their "offers" raised, or whether they'll be content to stay on the old local rates. If every one of them refuses the lowest offers then they will rise. Sure, some agencies will get untrained and unskilled "can do" workers to do some of the work, but wherever there's a need for quality the skilled professionals will soon find they are in demand at higher rates. Rates won't double overnight but, as the proverb goes, "Little strokes fell great oaks". If you don't even bother to pick up the axe then you'll never make any progress chopping down the tree.
| | | | | A few comments | Sep 24, 2014 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
On the other hand, full membership combined with KudoZ points gives you visibility in Proz.com's directory. That's when you get contacted by more serious and direct clients. It happens in my language pair. It only happens in your language pair, Bernhard. 
This is a frequently overlooked point. Now and then people ask whether it is worthwhile to invest in a paid membership at Proz or a host of similar portals/sites.
I advise everyone to be free users in each and every one of them, for exposure, and then keep track of the offers in their specific language pair. Each such site has its strong and absent pairs.
Time has shown me that from all these translation e-venues, the only one having significant and constant activity around my specific language pair is Proz. On the other hand, if my languages involved PL, I'd be better off at Globtra. So, depending on your pair, your mileage may vary a lot.
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
All I can say is that no one should work at lower rates than those posted [on ProZ.com's rates search]. I am certain other experienced professionals will agree with me. I think most professionals would use the ProZ.com rates as a benchmark when it suits them, and say "it's too high" or "it's too low" when it suits that argument. The ProZ.com reported rates do not reflect what translators actually get paid for translation, but rather what they would like to be paid.
The point is that if translators are at all reasonable, they should get paid exactly what they are asking for.
I've tried to cover how much they should be asking for under #4 on this page. By applying the "Proz rate" there as corresponding to "100", a translator should get a workable figure.
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
What I can recommend is to quote and charge adequate rates (which I do in my language pair - and my prices are never lower and most often much higher than the ones listed as "standard rates" per word and per hour on the Proz.com rates page for my language pair.) Do you really think translators who work for such rates actually choose to work for such rates? The fact that you personally receive both high and low offers does not mean that everyone does. Some people only get both low and very low offers.
Rate "offers" are all about ignorance - not knowing how much a translation costs. Each professional translator should know how much their services are worth.
If there is not enough demand for the (high) quality they offer, they may accept compatible rates, e.g. how much a Formula I champion would charge to drive a taxicab. However this depends on the F1 pilot willing/needing to drive a cab, not because the passenger/client demands so.
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
To work for rock-bottom rates because many others seem to be doing the same thing never worked for me. It doesn't even pay the bills. What a strange thought... namely that people who work for rock-bottom rates do so because others do so. But you're advocating the same thing, actually -- you say that others must work for high rates simply because you do too. Yes, low rates won't pay the bills, but high rates won't pay the bills either, if you don't get any work at those rates. And if you can't pay the bills, then you have too many bills and you're trying to live above your income. You say "hold on to reasonable rates", and that is a fine idea for the privileged, but translation work is not about ideology -- it is about making a living and finding sufficient jobs to do so. Refusing all jobs that don't pay idealistic rates may grant one a high horse, but you can't eat that.
Too many translators work for rock-bottom rates because prospects have successfully led them to THINK that others do. I've seen it happen over and over again. A client tells the translator that someone can do it cheaper, the latter believes it and lowers their rates for absolutely no concrete reason.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 00:26
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Sheila Wilson wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
It only happens in your language pair, Bernhard.:-) I can assure you it happens in French to English as well.
I was being hyperbolic... it happens in all the major language pairs (as you say yourself).
The ProZ.com reported rates do not reflect what translators actually get paid for translation, but rather what they would like to be paid. My own rate is published in my profile in black and white. Whenever I quote lower per word there's a clear business case for doing so...
I'm sure the same thing applies to all other translators as well. The question is what you consider to be a "clear business case". If no-one wants to pay the high rate, would that not be a clear business case for accepting lower rates?
It's easy to say "I will refuse any offers below my hourly rate" but if all offers are well below that rate, then it would mean that you will refuse all offers. The assumption here (which may be true for the major language pairs) is that there will always be sufficient high-paying work to make up for all the low-paying job offers that you turned down.
When new translators ask the question "what should my rate be", they all get the advice not to quote low rates, and so they put high rates on their profile pages. But that doesn't mean that they'll actually get any jobs at those rates. The rates people put on their profile pages is the rate that they think they should be getting, or hope that they're going to get.
What I don't understand, Samuel, is when you say this: The fact that you (referring to Bernhard) personally receive both high and low offers does not mean that everyone does. Some people only get both low and very low offers. Many of the private contacts I receive through my ProZ.com profile don't mention a rate at all: they ask me for my rate. And a high percentage of those accept my rate happily.
There is little to understand -- the clients in your language combination are used to paying high rates, so when you quote a high rate to them, they're more likely to accept it, because it is more likely to be within their budget. I also get many private contacts through my ProZ.com profile who ask me for my rate, but only about 10-20% of them accept my initially stated rate.
The bottom line is that I reserve the right to set the rate for my work. It's every freelancer's right and I suspect it's only been since the advent of the Internet that some freelancers have allowed this right to be denied them.
Of course you can set your own rate, Sheila, but explain this to me then: why set it at such a low level as 12c per word? Why not go for a full euro per word? Surely if you have the right to set your own rates, you can set it at 1 euro per word. Why don't you? There is an answer to that question, and it is the same answer that low-rate translators who also "set their rate" will give.
Someone mentioned an enormous difference between the rate offered by local agencies and ones abroad. So, who's restricting you to local agencies? Why not leave their jobs to the unqualified, inexperienced and hobby translators, and market your services world-wide?
Not all languages are spoken equally everywhere in the world, Sheila.
It may be that the local market has more opportunities than the international one. That certainly is the case with my language pair. And then the inevitable thing happens: local tranlsators realise that they can make more money working internationally, and then the translator supply on the international market increases, meaning that translators who used to work primarily internationally end up getting less work at high rates, which means... rates go down, even internationally.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 00:26
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Too many translators work for rock-bottom rates because prospects have successfully led them to THINK that others do. I've seen it happen over and over again. A client tells the translator that someone can do it cheaper, the latter believes it and lowers their rates for absolutely no concrete reason.
I have never experienced this nor have I ever seen or heard any evidence that this happens. I only know that in theory it could happen.
When I quote a rate that is too high for the client, I typically get the response "sorry, that rate is too high for us" and not "other translators in this pair have lower rates".
On the other hand, how are translators supposed to know what fair rates are? They can use the cost-of-living calculation, but that often leads to unrealistic rates that the market simply does not carry (by that calculation I should be charging EUR 100 per hour, or EUR 0.20 per word). Or they could ask their colleagues (e.g. using ProZ.com's stated rates), but let's be honest: no-one is going to be honest about how low their real rates really are. Or they could hear what clients are saying to them about what they're willing to pay. Of course we advise new translators to push for higher rates, but there comes a point at which the client goes elsewhere.
[Edited at 2014-09-24 11:06 GMT]
| | | | badr-L
Morocco
Local time: 23:26
Member (2011)
English to French
+ ...
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Maybe in the third world or developing countries.
Yes, of course. Because people in third world are eating sand and dust and riding camels.
They prefer to be paid by some bread and potatoes rather than money !!!!!!
Come on dear colleague, translators in developing countries are as well educated as there peers in others countries and economies in such countries are also developed and people need money to live.
Go out from your office and make some tourism to visit such countries so you can talk from experience.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 00:26
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Re: Łukasz's comment | Sep 24, 2014 |
anyimahi1 wrote: Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Not in western Europe. Maybe in the third world or developing countries. It is difficult to imagine why you should think that such rates might be accepted in this part of the world. This part of the world abounds in talented translators who do not settle for mediocrity.
badr-L wrote: Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Not in western Europe. Maybe in the third world or developing countries. Come on dear colleague, translators in developing countries are as well educated as their peers in other countries, and economies in such countries are also developed, and people need money to live.
I can understand that Łukasz's statement may touch a nerve, but let's face it: translation agencies in economically "lesser" countries do pay less for translations. This has nothing to do with whether the translators are or aren't just as good as peers in other countries. Local translation agencies don't set their rates based on how highly educated the local translators are, but on what local end-clients are willing to pay. And it is not an insult to say so.
| | | | | I have, though not so bluntly | Sep 24, 2014 |
Samuel Murray wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Too many translators work for rock-bottom rates because prospects have successfully led them to THINK that others do. I've seen it happen over and over again. A client tells the translator that someone can do it cheaper, the latter believes it and lowers their rates for absolutely no concrete reason. I have never experienced this nor have I ever seen or heard any evidence that this happens. I know that in theory it could happen. When I quote a rate that is too high for the client, I typically get the response "sorry, that rate is too high for us" and not "other translators in this pair have lower rates".
I know it when they insist.
After I've stated my rates, if they tell me something like:
a) "We pay our translators $ ......." or
b) "We have a translator offering to do it for $ ......."
... it makes me wonder why they are still wasting time with me. Depending on the circumstances, I ask them.
When I do, some tell me they've had problems with late delivery, poor quality, etc., which they expect to avoid with me. I tell them all my clients are satisfied with the cost/benefit I deliver each and every time. If they are unhappy with the benefits they are getting, the price should change too, in order to balance the ratio.
Others say they merely want a discount. I tell them that if I gave them a discount because they asked for it, my initial offer would have been blatantly dishonest, which is forbidden by my book.
I do, however offer them different payment options so they can save on financial costs. I couldn't care less about the profit banks/PayPal would be making on my work. I also offer discounts for extended turnaround times, as I'd be able to work on their assignment during otherwise "idle" time.
Now considering "too much for my budget", any company knows that they'll have costs commensurate with the quality/speed they need their inputs. They'll consider these costs upon making up the price of whatever they sell, and compete on the level of what they deliver. If they've miscalculated it, machine translation will get them what they want at zero cost, its quality being about as good as rock-bottom cheap translation.
However every day I receive requests for cost estimates from individuals who need translations for their private purposes: a reference book or article for their graduate course paper, the user manual for some hi-tech gizmo they bought, a video they'd like to watch, a book an in-law recommended, etc. I have to explain them that a manufacturer or publisher will pulverize the translation cost among thousands of units, so nobody will notice it. For personal use, it's simply unaffordable.
Their other options are not viable... They can use machine translation, and try to understand the gibberish they'll get. Otherwise they can use a cheap amateur translator, and merely get another kind of gibberish. Silly as it may sound, quite often a foreign language course will be cheaper; the problem is the time it takes to learn it.
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LEXpert
United States
Local time: 17:26
Member (2008)
Croatian to English
+ ...
| Unfortunately, 'cheaper' often = 'good enough' | Sep 24, 2014 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
When I quote a rate that is too high for the client, I typically get the response "sorry, that rate is too high for us" and not "other translators in this pair have lower rates".
I've heard the latter occasionally. As a tactic for continuing negotiations, it doesn't really make sense, though. If they can get the translation cheaper, then why are they still talking to me? Presumably because they think that I can provide a better service, or I am available and their current person is not. Both of those factors increase demand for my services and should allow me to charge more. Unfortunately, the laws of economics have long-since been repealed in the translation market. Don't even get me started on my other favorite nonsensical argument: "This end client expects and receives volume discounts from us."
So "other translators in this pair have lower rates" is really code for "you may well be better, but we don't care, because what we're getting from cheaper translators is still 'good enough' for us."
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 00:26
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Why are they still talking to you? | Sep 24, 2014 |
Rudolf Vedo CT wrote:
If they can get the translation cheaper, then why are they still talking to me? Presumably because they think that I can provide a better service, or I am available and their current person is not.
Or because they don't want to spend too much time trying to find another translator. It's easier and faster to try to negotiate with a translator who is available than with one that isn't.
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badr-L wrote: Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Maybe in the third world or developing countries. Yes, of course. Because people in third world are eating sand and dust and riding camels. They prefer to be paid by some bread and potatoes rather than money !!!!!! Come on dear colleague, translators in developing countries are as well educated as there peers in others countries and economies in such countries are also developed and people need money to live. Go out from your office and make some tourism to visit such countries so you can talk from experience.
No need to take it amiss, it's not far from the truth, at least in some cases. For example, if the average monthly salary in a country is $500 or thereabouts, nobody is going to pay you $300 for 10 pages of translation or $500 for a day of interpretation, you can forget about it.
| | | | | Forget about things 'you can forget about' | Sep 24, 2014 |
No need to take it amiss, it's not far from the truth, at least in some cases. For example, if the average monthly salary in a country is $500 or thereabouts, nobody is going to pay you $300 for 10 pages of translation or $500 for a day of interpretation, you can forget about it.
I'm a resident of Slovakia, where the average monthly salary is about 800 euro/month ('average' here meaning, of course, that many people make much less than that). Right now, I'm in Malaysia, which is dirt cheap. Yet I just handed in a project of cca. 11 pages for 330 euro today. How did that happen?
a) black magic
b) pure luck
c) effective marketing, lots of hard work, identifying my unique selling point, lots of hard work, continuous professional development, lots of hard work, and treating my business as... well, business.
It's not impossible. It's not nigh impossible. But, just like with everything else, you need to know what you're doing and why you're doing it.
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Miroslav Jeftic wrote:
Pretty much have nothing more to add to Samuel Murray said, couldn't agree more. Translators who work in a well-developed and fair market are lucky they have such a market, but not every market is like that.
Luck has nothing to do with what you make as a translator. And the market I work in is very competitive.
I stand by what I said before. There is a difference between adequate and ridiculous rates in any country.
| | | | Jean Lachaud
United States
Local time: 18:26
English to French
+ ...
Is there really anything to add to what Rudolf wrote? Although it may be less true in Europe, that is the sad truth in the USA.
Rudolf Vedo CT wrote:
So "other translators in this pair have lower rates" is really code for "you may well be better, but we don't care, because what we're getting from cheaper translators is still 'good enough' for us."
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 23:26
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| In reply to Samuel | Sep 24, 2014 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Sheila Wilson wrote:
My own rate is published in my profile in black and white. Whenever I quote lower per word there's a clear business case for doing so... The question is what you consider to be a "clear business case". If no-one wants to pay the high rate, would that not be a clear business case for accepting lower rates?
No, it wouldn't. My per-hour rate is my minimum rate; the rate I need if my business is to be viable. I have a per-word rate too: in some cases I can lower that without compromising my per-hour income. That would be a clear business case for negotiation (if necessary).
If everyone started turning me down then I'd have to react. Maybe I'd just have to hone my marketing skills to make sure I come to the attention of better clients; maybe undertake some subject area or technical training; maybe invest in some time-saving software that would equate to the same per-hour rate for a lower per-word rate. I'd certainly rather accept a temporary drop in my income and a belt-tightening period while I get things sorted out than simply churning out more words, with the inevitable loss of quality, just to earn the same. I'd advise any other translator to think along those lines. You can wait for the dirty jobs to arrive or you can go out and land the better ones.
I also get many private contacts through my ProZ.com profile who ask me for my rate, but only about 10-20% of them accept my initially stated rate.
I'm surprised, seeing that you too have your rate published in your profile. Of course, we'll both be contacted by the odd hopeful agency sending mass emails to many translators in a pair without bothering to read their profiles.
Why not go for a full euro per word? Surely if you have the right to set your own rates, you can set it at 1 euro per word. Why don't you?
And earn €250 per hour, with very few expenses? I live in an area where the minimum wage is around €5 per hour, and where over half the people in the 18-25 year age group are unemployed (38% overall). I might be able to find clients to pay a euro per word, but I wouldn't personally feel happy earning so much more than my neighbours. I'm perfectly comfortable with my present income, thanks!
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